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2017-2018 L.A. Lakers Thread (exhale)
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guren



Joined: 31 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In this story, ESPN's Brian Windhorst says that the Hawks offered 4 1st round picks for George in February and were turned down. Obviously none of them were the second pick in this draft, but still, he won't come cheap.
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jdw
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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Those Hawks picks would end up being pretty poor unless the Hawks flat out blew up. They have future picks of the Wolves (lotto protected until converting to a 2nd rounder) and the Cavs (going to be at worst in the mid-20s as long as Bron is Bron).
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jdw
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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JAG wrote:
Boston isn't that close without all of the real superstars all getting hurt at once. No closer than Indy was a couple years ago when they were jobbing to LeBron in the ECF.


They are closer than we are. Really with their assets, they need just one superstar next year to go down to get to the Finals: Lebron. Irving and Love & Co are going anywhere without Bron carrying their ass.


Quote:
Alas, fuck the Celtics.


I don't disagree. Just trying to be honest about where they are at.


Quote:
I agree on being patient with the Lakers. Have all the assets, wait for the right move and FAs See reasons to come now. Trade the Rockets pick for a '18 pick and really refill the cupboard.


I worry about their judgement in trading the Rockets pick. They may think they have a chance to move up quite a bit, only to stumble upon trading it to a team that ends up drafting #20. I'd just as soon rather than try to jump through too many hoops that they just find someone they like in this draft.

It's low risk to trade it, but these guys still need to learn the value of picks and there are sharks out there who want to fleece them.


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Lonzo!


Yeah... kinda... sorta. He certainly would make things entertaining.
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JAG



Joined: 27 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My point isn't that Boston isn't better positioned then us. Of course I'd rather by in the Conference Finals and have this Brooklyn pick and next year's.

But

They don't have a superstar on their roster either. Isaiah kinda is but he isn't because the best teams will destroy him on defense.

Neither do the Lakers, but I feel we still have a chance in Ingram and Lonzo. And they will with Fulz. But who knows how that will turn out for either franchise. And that's always been the game within the game. Who gets those guys and how.

I can't see Ainge trading the pick as it seems they're going all in on Hayward. That team would be best equipped after LeBron but who knows how far that's off and what happens between now and then.

Lakers getting George for Randle-Clarkson-28 would be my final offer and one I'd hope Indy would accept. Lakers need to pass on giving Randle an extension or getting stuck matching a bad offer for him next summer. I'd rather open up the minutes for Nance-Deng-Ingram at the 4 and save the headaches.

Let's Indy save face as they get a lotto pick that fits next to Turner a starting SG and a 1st.

Save Russell to trade later if it doesn't work with Lonzo and maybe even if it does.

Jagdip
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JAG



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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 9:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And if you're gonna be a hardliner it can just be:

Clarkson-Tarik-28 for George. But I doubt that's enough.

Jagdip
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guren



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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

C'mon man. There is no way Indy would make either of those trades. Randle was 67/94 power forwards in RPM and Clarkson was 80/91 among point guards. They have very little value. Any deal would have to start with either DAR, Ingram, or the #2.

glenn
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JAG



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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fuck Indy. What leverage do they have?

Let him play out the year and he'll sign here anyway.

Jagdip
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JAG



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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LOL at the Celtics.

Danny Ainge and his scared money deserve this.
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guren



Joined: 31 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 6:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JAG wrote:
Fuck Indy. What leverage do they have?

Let him play out the year and he'll sign here anyway.


You're right. My bad. The Lakers have all the leverage. For some reason I mistakenly thought there were 28 other teams, with at least some of them having small forwards not as good as Paul George.

Also, if George makes an All-NBA team next year, there is a $70M incentive for him to stay in Indy. You know this, right?

glenn
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JAG



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PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 6:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So which one of those teams is gonna pay more than listed above to rent George?

Celtics? Nope.

So who? And what are they offering?

If George was staying in Indy he wouldn't be going on Jimmy Kimmel openly talking about leaving.

Jagdip
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guren



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PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 7:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Read this article by Matt Moore of CBS Sports.

Paul George to Lakers (possibly with Russell Westbrook)? All-NBA vote makes it easier

This is a pretty balanced take. Within the article, he writes this:
Quote:
Let's say they trade Russell, Houston's first-rounder, their own first-rounder in 2019, and a 2021 unprotected pick to Indiana, who can't find a better offer for George after he has told them he's gone. Throw in Randle or Jordan Clarkson on top of it.


I just don't think you will get Paul George, even though he has just one year on his contract left, for a pu pu platter. If I am wrong, I am more than happy to admit I am wrong.

glenn
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jdw
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PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 11:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pulling this over from the other thread...

JAG wrote:
So:

* Russell is gonna be a real player as his post-ASB was impressive and the metrics project really well. Keep or trade, he will be valuable.


I think he's going to be an offensive player. His defense is beyond crap, and I don't think that it will ever get good. You can win games with a crappy defensive point guard - the Rockets had terrific regular seasons two out of the last three seasons with Harden. Curry isn't a good defensive PG, tends to get hidden... but he's more a limited defender due to his size than a completely clueless defender like DAR or a usually indifferent defender like Harden. Then again... the Cavs won with Irving, but they also have the best player since Jordan. DAR isn't likely to play next to the best player since Lebron anytime soon.

The injury issues are a concern. I don't think he's a jake like Steve does, but it's a worry.

I don't see a great deal of passion or drive or killer instinct or focus in him. It's likely that any of our trade partners would see the same lack.

Is he worth some team taking a flyer on? Sure. Us? Absent other stuf... I guess. If we keep the #2 pick and get one of the two top PG, then DAR needs to go. Ball is a shit defender who UCLA totally protected to avoid exposing, and Fultz was pretty indifferent. If we can't play DAR and Clarkson together because they're both so bad, we can't with DAR and Ball.


Quote:
* Ingram showed why his floor is so high. He will be a good player at the least. But the shooting was so bad, it makes it hard to imagine a superstar. Then you watch the games and you see this puppy flash things that few guys in the league have. I still say he's going to be a two-way stud.


For the life of me, I have no idea why his shooting sucked so bad. It was the one sure thing about him and the reason he was the #2 pick in the draft (and some thinking he could have gone #1). It really was a catastrophe, and at times he looked almost broken in shooting spirit in not wanting to toss up relatively open shots. He was more confident late in the year, but his three point shooting was still the drizzling shits down the stretch.

I honestly don't know what he is long term. They worked hard on his handles, which is a positive. If we have a boner for Paul George, well... that's Ingram's spot. He's not a power forward. Heck, KD is bigger and stronger and still doesn't really want to play power forward. Lebron himself likes to spot his own time at PF to avoid the constant pounding and wear and tear... and he's the most physically gifted guy in the league. Ingram ain't that. Ingram will get eaten up if he's a PF.

Is he a long term SG? Not shooting like that.

I like him. He's a hard worker, and has drive that you don't see in a lot of our young players... even if he looks like Sam Perkins 2.0 in that laid back bonged out fashion. Not saying he has a killer instinct, but he has a hoops to get better rather than think he's already The Shit like DAR too often has.

But... I don't know what the fuck we're going to do with him if we chase a Real Big Star to play Small Forward.


Quote:
* Randle. Um, still no idea. Does a few things so well, that he will be well-paid, but can't shake hat he will also be a tease. He shot 3s late in the year and that will open up his game, but two things are reductive: He needs the ball to be most effective and he's not efficient enough to justify doing that with him as a starter and he sucks on defense. Most of it seems effort-based, but I learned long ago that motor is a skill and his only revs up on D every fifth game or so. I'd look to trade him, rather then paying him.


Terrible on defense. He can't shoot for shit beyond 3 feet. He's not a sharp player. His extension will move him into making more than he's really worth. The Lakers can over pay people, but at a certain point it clogs up the cap space.

I've never really liked him, going all the way back to when we drafted him - the game is moving away from his type of play. He stuffs the stat sheet rather than actually helping teams win, so he will get overpaid. One could hope that there's some mark out there who will overvalue him and take him off out hands in a trade.


Quote:
* Clarkson is a 6th man. Maybe even good enough to be one of the best in the league at that. Trade bait with that nice contract.


I don't know anymore how good that contract is. He played in the same back court as Lou Williams. Is he better than Lou Williams? Lou was coming off the Sixth Man of the Year award, and no one was willing to give him more than the $7M a year for 3 years that we gave him. There wasn't a hell of a market for him - we got the 28th pick in the draft, which really isn't a whole hell of a lot. Clarkson is younger, but he's already 24 and looks to have hit a developmental wall.

He's every bit as shitty of a defensive player as Williams, but without the size excuse. I can't really figure out why Clarkson is so shitty on defense, since he's not as indifferent as Harden and doesn't strike me as being as clueless as DAR. But... I don't think his brain processes defense well, and combined with crappy footwork it just makes him "off" on everything. I don't think there's much upside there on defense.

I kind of hoped that he would learn some shit from Williams, like getting to the line via tricky stuff. But Clarkson was utter crap at drawing fouls.

I had a lot of hopes for him two seasons ago in the flash down the stretch of 2015. But he just hasn't improved. He should have flourished offensively under Luke, but didn't.


Quote:
* Nance is a good first big off the bench, but seems too afraid to shoot to be a starter. Would like to see what he could do with that role if Randle was moved, but he probably is what he is. Good energy guy who's a plus on defense and a willing passer.


He's hard working, and seems less a block head than most of our young players. He's also a willing role player rather seeing himself as a star, or having star potential. Useful to have around, but you don't want to get locked into paying him too much for loyalty and what not, nor needing to really count on him to be a key player.

That sad reality is the he has ceilings, with the worst being health and physically breaking down. If he dials it back, he's not the player he is. If he doesn't dial it back, he's boing to break down... fast. Without the physical abilities and effort, he really isn't shit. So he's a massive catch 22. At some point he's going to end up with a Luke Walton Contract, which looks relatively cheap until his body falls apart and he's unplayable other than with a team winning 15 to 30 games (like Luke in CLE at the end).

I don't want to be so pessimistic about him. Good guy, hard worker, etc. You'd like to see him have a long career where he's a useful role player for teams.


Quote:
* Zubac is skilled but really far away from being a starter. Horrendous on D, not strong enough, etc. But he has post moves, can shoot, can pass and has that Euro big feel that is becoming all the rage. Keeper, but reasonable expectations for next season.


I like him, but am trying to hold my hopes to being reasonable. Per 36 as rookies:

Joker: 17-12-4-2-1
Zubes: 17-9-2-1-2

Joker was a year older and had more experiance / quality in Europe before coming over. Joker also already looks like someone who you can run an offense through, like his potential will be far beyond Marc Gasol at his best. Zubes doesn't have all that.

However...

If I were Luke and the Lakers, I'd have him spending much of the off season studying Andrew Bogut tapes. Most off the focus on defense, but keeping an eye on what Bogut was doing on offense for the Dubs. Great screens, very underrated excellent passing, etc. The game has moved away from centers averaging 20-10, and even one like Boogie who has like clockwork has also not turned his teams into anything any good. Zubes isn't going to be a Tyson Chandler style modern defense + screen + roll center. But he does need to bust his ass on the defense and screen aspects, along with the passing.


Quote:
I like Tarik Black, but guys like him always get overpaid by somebody.


He as overpaid by us. He's not worth $6M a year. We had money to burn, and it was the one decent contract Mitch & Jim signed last year since we can get out of it. Guys like him on contenders play down near the minimums or vet minimum. Just the sad reality.

He's a hard worker, and not a block head. But guys like him are easy to replace with the next Tarik Black who is on a 2nd round contract or undrafted making $1M a year.


Quote:
Rest of our roster is trash.


The roster was so bad that Tyler Ennis turned into a feel good story.

The Deng and Mozgov contracts remain massive milestones. We're as likely to use the HOU and 2019 1st rounders to get someone to take them off our hands then using them to get GP.

Brewer's $7.5M is easier to move or use as trade filler. But it's not like anyone will come asking for him and offer anything.

It would be funny if Swaggy fucked us by not opting out. We did screw him over a bit by sitting him down.


Quote:
I'll leave Luke alone until next season.


Hard to judge Luke much. He was stuck with a team of idiots along with a pair of washed up guys Jim & Mitch signed. After the initial good start turned into reality, tanking became the marching orders. It's hard to coach in those circumstances.

The Idiots part is a big key. I don't know if Tibs could have mashed up some magic defense out of these guys - they simply don't know how to play it and far too often didn't give a shit about trying. On the offensive side, Luke could get across the concepts and it looked okay at the start of the year... but these guys can't really play a Warriors or Spurs type of offense. Don't have the skills, and aren't remotely close to having the brains. Do any of these guys have the Hoops IQ that Curry or Green or Iggy or Livingston or KD or have? I don't think a single one of them has the Hoops IQ that David West does, whose mind still sees stuff that his body doesn't quite let him do anymore... but you can see the brain picking up things.

I think that's the most disappointing thing about being at this stage in the process with this talent: there isn't a single one of them who feels like a lock for being a championship contender level starter, and instead too many of them feel like dumb fucks and/or limited players. Frustrating as all hell.
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JAG



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PostPosted: Sun May 21, 2017 1:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

guren wrote:
Read this article by Matt Moore of CBS Sports.

Paul George to Lakers (possibly with Russell Westbrook)? All-NBA vote makes it easier

This is a pretty balanced take. Within the article, he writes this:
Quote:
Let's say they trade Russell, Houston's first-rounder, their own first-rounder in 2019, and a 2021 unprotected pick to Indiana, who can't find a better offer for George after he has told them he's gone. Throw in Randle or Jordan Clarkson on top of it.


I just don't think you will get Paul George, even though he has just one year on his contract left, for a pu pu platter. If I am wrong, I am more than happy to admit I am wrong.

glenn


Hard to give Matt any credibility when he doesn't know the Lakers don't have their 2019 pick to trade because their 2018 is already traded.

Lakers aren't giving up all their assets to get Paul George. I'd be shocked if they even gave up one of their big three assets (Lonzo, Ingram, Russell).

Jagdip

Jagdip
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guren



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PostPosted: Sun May 21, 2017 2:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jdw wrote:
Pulling this over from the other thread...
(D'Angelo)
Is he worth some team taking a flyer on? Sure. Us? Absent other stuf... I guess. If we keep the #2 pick and get one of the two top PG, then DAR needs to go.

John, would you rather have DAR, or the Lakers' 2018 unprotected 1st round pick that is going to the 76ers? The 76ers could use a combo guard and from what I recall they liked Russell coming out of college.

glenn
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guren



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PostPosted: Sun May 21, 2017 2:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JAG wrote:
Lakers aren't giving up all their assets to get Paul George. I'd be shocked if they even gave up one of their big three assets (Lonzo, Ingram, Russell).

And I would be equally shocked if they got George next year without giving up at least one of those three plus extras. Paul George is really good, and some team will make a serious offer.

glenn
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