The OtherArena

[Steve Yohe]

Someone post a top 100 list of NBA player at WC, and I posted a top 50 list. John wanted me to post it here so he and everyone else can make fun on it & tear it apart. So this is the post:

I started watching the NBA in 1962 and have probably watched or followed every Laker game sence. This is my list. I rate guys higher if I felt they were killers who could beat you every night. Some big stars I didn't respect if I thought they were chokes. If I didn't think some star could beat us, I rated them down the list or left them off.

Russell won 11 titles & I can't see puting Jordan above him. He was a monster in his time & he was great in big games. When they were playing, everyone put Russell above Wilt.

1-Bill Russell
2-Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3-Michal Jordan
4-Lebron James
5-Wilt Chamberlain
6-Jerry West
7-Oscar Robertson
8-Magic Johnson
9-Tim Duncan
10-George Mikan
11-Elgin Baylor
12-Larry Bird
13-Bob Pettit
14-Kobe Bryant
15-Hakeem Olajuwon
16-Shaq O’Neal
17-John Havlicek
18-Moses Malone
19-Julius Erving
20-Rick Barry
21-John Stockton
22-Karl Malone
23-Walt Frazier
24-Kevin Mchale
25-Nate Thurmond
26-David Robinson
27-Bill Walton
28-Dwayne Wade
29-Scottie Pippen
30-Dennis Rodman
31-Kevin Durant
32-Isiah Thomas
33-Dirk Nowitzki
34-Paul Pierce
35-Charles Barkley
36-Dave Cowens
37-Elvin Hayes
38-Sam Jones
39-Joe Fulks
40-Hal Greer
41-Ray Allen
42-George Gervin
43-Clyde Drexler
44-Willis Reed
45-Billy Cunningham
46-James Worthy
47-Dave Debusschere
48-David Thompson
49-Tony Parker
50-Joe Dumars

In the last few days, Kobe was quoted saying that he & Jordan were very much a like. In playing with this list, I remembered someone that was even more like Kobe.......Rick Barry. Only difference is Kobe stayed with one team and Barry was a much bigger dick. ---Yohe

[Steve Yohe]

I screwed up & have two #6, so it's a list of 51...I think.--Yohe

[JAG]

I can't muster up the energy to do my own top 50 right now, but there are many nits to pick with your list. Which is the point, I suppose.

I can barely pretend the guys from 1960s played the same sport, let alone the guys from the '50s. Bias for sure, but I believe a correct one.

You have Jordan, Magic, Bird and Kobe too low. LeBron is too high for now. And you can't leave Garnett off the list.

Jagdip

[jdw]

Split into it's own thread.

[jdw]

For some reference, here's Simmons' list during the 2010 off season (after Kobe's back-to-back and Lebron's The Decision). The +/- are from his 2009 rankings.

"The Pantheon" (Level 5):

1 - Michael Jordan
2 - Bill Russell
3 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4 - Magic Johnson
5 - Larry Bird
6 - Wilt Chamberlain
7 - Tim Duncan
8 - Kobe Bryant +7
9 - Jerry West -1
10 - Oscar Robertson -1

11 - Hakeem Olajuwon -1
12 - Shaquille O'Neal -1
13 - Moses Malone -1


Level 4:

14 - John Havlicek -1
15 - Elgin Baylor -1
16 - Julius Erving
17 - Bob Pettit
18 - Karl Malone
19 - Charles Barkley
20 - LeBron James

21 - Bob Cousy
22 - Kevin Garnett
23 - Isiah Thomas
24 - Scottie Pippen


Level 3:

25 - John Stockton
26 - Rick Barry
27 - Bill Walton
28 - Dwyane Wade +25
29 - David Robinson -1
30 - Willis Reed

31 - Dave Cowens
32 - Walt Frazier
33 - Sam Jones
34 - George Gervin
35 - Kevin McHale
36 - Steve Nash +2
37 - Allen Iverson -8
38 - George Mikan -2


Level 2:

39 - Dirk Nowitzki -2
40 - Patrick Ewing -1

41 - Gary Payton -1
42 - Wes Unseld -1
43 - Jason Kidd -1
44 - Clyde Drexler -1
45 - Nate Thurmond -1
46 - Dave DeBusschere -1
47 - Paul Pierce +7
48 - Hal Greer -2
49 - Billy Cunningham -2
50 - James Worthy -2

51 - Elvin Hayes -2
52 - Dolph Schayes -2
53 - Bill Sharman -2
54 - Dennis Johnson -2
55 - Dominique Wilkins
56 - Paul Arizin
57 - Tommy Heinsohn
58 - Bernard King
59 - Robert Parish
60 - Nate Archibald

61 - Bob McAdoo


Level 1:

62 - Ray Allen +1
63 - Reggie Miller -1
64 - Jerry Lucas
65 - Alex English
66 - Adrian Dantley
67 - Earl Monroe
68 - Pete Maravich
69 - Dennis Rodman
70 - David Thompson

71 - Lenny Wilkens
72 - Chris Webber
73 - Sidney Moncrief
74 - Joe Dumars
75 - Artis Gilmore +1
76 - Dan Issel +1
77 - Tracy McGrady -2
78 - Dwight Howard +13
79 - Paul Westphal -1
80 - Bobby Dandridge -1

81 - Dave Bing
82 - Chris Mullin
83 - Cliff Hagan +1
84 - Robert Horry +1
85 - Arvydas Sabonis +1
86 - Connie Hawkins +1
87 - Gail Goodrich +1
88 - Shawn Kemp +1
89 - Vince Carter -6
90 - Chris Paul

91 - Bailey Howell -11
92 - Bob Lanier
93 - Kevin Johnson
94 - Jack Twyman
95 - Jo Jo White
96 - Tom Chambers


Pyramid Players by Position:

Point Guards: Magic (4), Oscar (10), Cousy (21), Isiah (23), Stockton (25), Frazier (32), Nash (36), GP (41), Kidd (43), DJ (54), Tiny (60), Wilkens (71), Bing (81), Paul (90), KJ (93)

Shooting Guards: Jordan (1), Kobe (8), West (9), Wade (28), Jones (33), Iverson (37), Drexler (44), Greer (48), Sharman (53), Allen (62), Miller (63), Monroe (67), Pistol (68), Thompson (70), Moncrief (73), Dumars (74), Westphal (79), Goodrich (87), Carter (89), White (95)

Small Forwards: Bird (5), Hondo (14), Elgin (15), Dr. J (16), LeBron (20), Pippen (24), Barry (26), Gervin (34), Pierce (47), Cunningham (49), Worthy (50), 'Nique (55), Arizin (56), King (58), English (65), Dantley (66), T-Mac (77), Dandridge (80), Mullin (82), Hagan (83), Howell (91), Twyman (94)

Power Forwards: Duncan (7), Pettit (17), Mailman (18), Barkley (19), KG (22), McHale (35), Dirk (39), DeBusschere (46), Hayes (51), Schayes (52), Heinsohn (57), Lucas (64), Rodman (69), Webber (72), Horry (84), Hawkins (86), Kemp (88), Chambers (96)

Centers: Russell (2), Kareem (3), Wilt (6), Hakeem (11), Shaq (12), Moses (13), Walton (27), Robinson (29), Reed (30), Cowens (31), Mikan (38), Ewing (40), Unseld (42), Thurmond (45), Parish (59), McAdoo (61), Gilmore (75), Issel (76), Howard (78), Sabonis (85), Lanier (92)

* * * *

There are four more seasons since then, including:

* Lebron's four straight trips to The Final (2 titles + 2 Finals MVP + 2 more NBA MVP's)

* seven full years of Durran rather than just 3 (which is why his wasn't ranked)

* Dirk's 2010 NBA title (which if I've read Bill's comments since then zoom him up to Level 4)

* Duncan's two more trips to the Final and one additional NBA Title (past Wilt and Kobe... at least)

* another 4 years of 18-10-4 from CP3, 3 1st Team All-NBA

* two more NBA titles for Wade

And other things. Lebron is the 14th player in Level 5, and Bill may have had him in the Top 10 by now.

[jdw]

7

[jdw]

Paul Pierce twice:

[jdw]

But that's okay as you have two 49's

[jdw]

Looking at Steve and Simmons list, here are the people in Bill's Top 50 that Steve left off:

21 - Bob Cousy
22 - Kevin Garnett
36 - Steve Nash
37 - Allen Iverson
40 - Patrick Ewing
41 - Gary Payton
42 - Wes Unseld
43 - Jason Kidd

Most of them stick in my mind as guys you never liked.

You tended to like KG and AI less than most everyone rates him.

Don't recall you ever saying much positive about Cousy.

You never liked Nash a lot.

We both tended to rip Ewing, and joke about Unseld when his name comes up.

Kidd, like Nash, isn't really your type of player... though you have Stockton really high.

Not sure how far Payton was away from making your Top 50. He was a bit of an asshole, but pretty much your type of PG: hard working, great defense, could score and also dish, shot the ball a heck of a lot better than guys like Kidd.

The guys on your list who didn't make Bill's list:

31 - Kevin Durrant
39 - Joe Fulks
49 - Tony Parker

KD was too young to make it. I'm sure he would be there now.

Parker wasn't in his Top 96, but that was through the 2009/10 season. He then had four more years of 18-7-3 with a team that made two Finals and won a Title, so he would certainly be in his Top 96, and maybe Top 50.

Fulks wasn't on his list.

Fulks is odd. 30% shooter, he took a ton of shots: 26 & 29 in the two years he led the league in scoring, 28 the following year. I'm kind of struck by 1950/51:

19-8-2 Fulk
17-10-2 Arizin

Arizin was a rookie out of college. Fulk was 29, a 2nd team All-NBA player. Fulk shot .316, the second highest of his career. Arizin shot .407, which would end up being below his career average. Fulk never shot close to that. Fulk to 21 shots a game that year. Arizin took 13, and only score a point and a half less.

Arizin was a better free throw shooter though his career, and shot 100 points higher. He had a rep as a tough defensive player. He was innovative with the jump shot at a time when everyone else was a set shooter. He also lost two years to military service.

Arizin wouldn't make my Top 50 for obvious reasons (lack of Black Players in his prime). But I'm not sure why Fulk would rate higher.

[jdw]

Okay... kind of winging this.

1. Michael Jordan
2. Bill Russell
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Tim Duncan
5. Magic Johnson
6. Larry Bird
7. Kobe Bryant
8. Wilt Chamberlain
9. Jerry West
10. LeBron James

11. Oscar Robertson
12. Hakeem Olajuwon
13. Shaquille O'Neal
14. Moses Malone
15. Elgin Baylor
16. John Havlicek
17. Dirk Nowitzki
18. Julius Erving
19. Isiah Thomas
20. Kevin Garnett

21. Karl Malone
22. Charles Barkley
23. Bob Pettit
24. Bob Cousy
25. Walt Frazier
26. Rick Barry
27. Dwyane Wade
28. Sam Jones
29. Scottie Pippen
30. Kevin Durrant

31. Dave Cowens
32. Kevin McHale
33. David Robinson
34. Dennis Rodman
35. John Stockton
36. Willis Reed
37. Gary Payton
38. Steve Nash
39. Billy Cunningham
40. George Mikan

41. Paul Pierce
42. Dennis Johnson
43. Ray Allen
44. Bob McAdoo
45. David Thompson
46. Hal Greer
47. Bob Dandridge
48. Sidney Moncrief
49. Nate Thurmond
50. Bill Walton

[Steve Yohe]

Bob Cousy
I saw him in his last year & didn't think much of him. He made a come back when he was a coach & he just messed things up. He wasn't a major athlete. He couldn't shoot & didn't play defense & I don't think he was fast. Left when Oscar & West came in. Wasn't a winner until Russell showed up. Sam Jones was better.

Kevin Garnett
Garnett was choke in Min. Don't know how his reputation changed after going to Boston. On national TV Barkley always gave him shit because he wouldn't take over late in games. I never felt he would beat us...until that one year in Boston.

Steve Nash
Hurt you on defense. Not a championship player.

Allen Iverson
Air head.

Patrick Ewing
Over rated.

Gary Payton
Never thought much about him. Saw him for years against the Lakers. Just another good player. Sucked with the Lakers

Wes Unseld
He was only like 6'6". Had a good first year but just got by...by holding. Big body. Never seemed like a problem. Muscle guy.

Jason Kidd
He was Ok, but not top 50.

[Steve Yohe]

Your list is Ok. But your always trying to cover your ass. I stick my neck out and say what I think from watching games for 52 years.--Yohe

[jdw]

Breaking it down:

1. Michael Jordan
2. Bill Russell
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

To me these are the candidates for #1 of all-time.

I think what Jordan did was harder than what Russell did: more teams, talent spread out compared to how loaded the Celtics were, and the pressure of being the #1 athlete in the US (when Russ wasn't). Dominating from Guard rather than Center, with Russell having the advantage of only one other athlete of his physical ability in the league (Wilt).

If Jabbar went to the Celts as a rookie in 1957, it's entirely possible they would have won 11 titles over the course of his career. He was a quality center 17 years into his career, while Russ had been retired for 4 seasons by that point. Jabbar was durable to the end, and always kept himself in top shape. He was far more interested in Winning than Stats, as one saw all the way back to his UCLA days. A terrific defensive player in his prime, a terrific scorer, an excellent and willing passing big man, and high hoops IQ. Would have fit in well with those Celts. I think the gap between Russ and Jabbar is much smaller between them and Wilt.


4. Tim Duncan
5. Magic Johnson
6. Larry Bird
7. Kobe Bryant

I think Tim passed all three of these guys with the 5th title and the back-to-back trip to the finals late in life. His seasonal stats in those years aren't mind blowing, but he had a lot of big games in those two post seasons. We tend to forget that he's a two time MVP who probably should have won 4 straight from 2001-2004. His peak was higher than people think since his game never was to stuff the box score with points on a nightly basis, so he doesn't look as dominating as others.

It's worth noting that I have Kobe higher than Steve:

[jdw]

[jdw]

Alright... coming back to this and will keep coming back until Jag gets off his rear end and does a list of his own... ;)

Here are the players on either Bill or Steve's list that I left off mine:

George Gervin (34 BS / 43 SY)

Great scorer, and his teams were "successful". But they never really were a serious contender for the title. They were up 3-1 in the WCF in 1979, yet blew the last four games, including Game 6 at home. He got outscored by Dandridge in that game, then Bobby went toe-to-toe with him in Game 7 (42 points vs 37) where the Bullets won and Bobby scored the winning hoop.

He's Top 100. But not quite Top 50 for me.


Allen Iverson (37 BS / NR SY)

Another amazing talent and scorer. Not efficient at all, though warrants credit for being an insane warrior out there taking loads of punishment while leading the league in Minutes Per Game a nutty number of times. Like Gervin, his teams were "successful" but not really serious contenders. The trip to the Finals wouldn't have happened if they were in the West.

Tend to agree that it's nutty not to have him in the Top 50. But I never really was wowed by him. Respect his toughness, and that he largely had crappy support. On the flip side, I'm not sure how well he would have clicked if you dropped him on the 80s Celts in the place of Bird, or the Shaqkobe Lakers in the place of Kobe. He's a force of nature... not really a force of winning titles. Like with guys like Gervin and Nique, I'd toss him in the 51-100 range.


Patrick Ewing (40 BS / NR SY)

One feels a bit bad for Ewing. He might have been the Best Robert Parrish Ever if he played with a Bird, or perhaps could have scaled to Dave Cowens level if he played with a Hondo & Jo Jo for a better organization. A 29-11 season followed by a 27-11 season is certainly an impressive peak. I'm not sold that Thurmond really was all that better, but if you gave me the choice between the two, I'd probably take a Thurmond-type. Ewing-types are always going to be taken #1 overall, and you're stuck building a team around them... a bit like Dwight Howard. A Thurmond-type can be transitioned into being Parrish: focus on your defensive job, rebound, and figure out how to get easy scores while others do the offensive heavy lifting. Thurmond was a horrible shooter, but on a better team his sticks to dunking.

Ewing would have been great in the Parrish role. The problem is that he came into college as the Next Ralph Sampson / Bill Russell, went to three Finals in four years, won one of them, won all sorts of awards, and was going to be the #1 pick even if he came out the year before with Hakeem, Mike and Bowie. He was The Shit, and had spend 4+ years having John Thompson blow smoke up his ass. It's hard to convert that into being Robert Parrish. It would have taken a Magic Johnson to con him into being a great complimentary player: Magic would have been good enough to get Ewing his 24-26 points in the course of the game, making him think he's the All Pro... while Magic really is running the show. I don't think even Bird could have gotten a Parrish role out of him, or even a McHale.

Top 100, but shy of Top 50.


Wes Unseld (42 BS / NR SY)

Another Robert Parrish type, who largely played the Parrish role in his career except the season they stupidly gave him the MVP. I can't put a guy who averaged over 15 points a game only once in his career in the Top 50. I mean seriously... Dennis Johnson vs Wes Unseld? It's not even close.


Jason Kidd (43 BS / NR SY)

Kind of a giant pain in the ass, which has been lost over time. Flamed out in Dallas, Phoenix and New Jersey. An incredible bad shooter, though he worked hard to get better at 3's late in his career back in Dallas. That said... he had about as much of a nose hoops as anyone. Terrific assist man, ran great breaks, amazing ability to find rebounds, underrated defender, he made most of his teams and teammates "better" even though a lot of them were stacked with garbage / mediocre players.

Close for me, as I do like players who make their teammates better. But I think Payton, DJ & Moncrief were better all around (great defenders as well), while Nash flipped Bad Defense for Kidd's Bad Shooting. Would be an interesting comp between those two... just think Nash's offense was better enough to cover for the defense. He also wasn't the head case that needed to leave town.


Clyde Drexler (44 BS / NR SY)

I have him just a bit out of the Top 50. Pretty terrific all around offensive player before Jordan torched him, including some sneaky offensive board numbers. Could create for others, and probably could have put up more points of he had more of a gunners mentality. I tend to think his defense was underrated: could be very good at times, though a bit inconsistent. Another guy who would have been a great second banana, and probably wouldn't have had an issue with it if matched with the right guy.

Would be Top 50 if he spent his entire career paired with Hakeem... or if the Lakers had ended up with him (#14 pick in the 1983 draft) rather than Byron Scott (#4 pick in the 1983 draft). Timing wasn't great, as the Nixon-Scott trade didn't happen until October and the draft was in June. Magic-Clyde would have taken some time to gell, but B-Scott took a couple of years to get his shit together as well.


Dave DeBusschere (46 BS / 48 SY)

Legendary defensive player, good rebounder for undersized forward... but kind of a shitty shooter. I don't get that there's enough to be Top 50 other than being yet another player on a legendary (and overrated) team. He never truly led a decent team, and how far down the pecking order was he in New York?


James Worthy (50 BS / 47 SY)

Luckiest SOB in NBA history. I love Big Game James, and treasure his contributions to those three title teams. But... he never would be Top 50 playing on *any* of team of that era, even the Celtics (since Bird was the SF). Perfect team for him, perfect teammate in Magic, and the right coach in Riley to deploy him perfectly.

My contrast would be with Dandridge. Both small forwards. 19-7-3 for Dandridge from 1970-79, and 19-6-3 for Worthy from 1983-91. Title winners. Neither led their teams, both were willing to play supporting roles behind their anchors. Both had some big games in big settings. I favor Bobby a bit more because he did it with two teams in the Bucks and then the Bullets. Jabbar and Oscar were the big stars on the first, and Hayes & Unseld were the established big boys on the other. Fitting in with both just hits me a bit more than James.


Elvin Hayes (51 BS / 37 SY)

Big numbers. Teams were overrated, and needed an injection of Dandridge to get over the hill. Jerry Lucas just five years later.


Joe Dumars (74 BS / 50 SY)

I like Joe. Terrific defensive player, and really good team defender. Could share some of the rock duties with Zeke, though Zeke really was the PG. Kind of amazing how late in his career (8th season) he turned himself into a really good 3P shooter and upped his game there. Really a guy you'd want on your team if you had a lead PG, or even probably would have made an excellent quasi-PG on a team with a Jordan or Kobe who really handled much of the "point" duties from the SG spot. Perfect as a #3 or #4 guy on a loaded team.

I kind of think Bill has him in close to the right place. I don't think he was as devastating as Payton defensively, and never led a team like DJ or Payton did. I think Moncrief's five year high end was a much higher peak than Dumars, without the quality of hard working defenders around him. Top 100.


Tony Parker (NR BS / 49 SY)

Don't disagree with Steve much, and suspect Simmons has him close to this range now. Since he would be "just in" rather than "strongly in" (like Durrant is), I thought it best to wait until his career was done. Also... his career seems to be on the downturn. You'd think this season and last would be him taking over more of the team as Timmy and Manu was declining. But Tony was down last year, and again this. The regularity of his little injuries are worrisome as well.

He'll be in my Top 50 when he's done.


Joe Fulks (NR BS / 39 SY)

Lack of Black Players in the NBA make me not even consider him. The game changed in the 60s.