The OtherArena

[Tomer]

Anyone know who's on the ballot this year?

[jdw]

I don't think Dave has sent it out yet. I haven't gotten mine, and Steve tends to post it when he gets it. Usually comes out around this time, but I think Dave is really impacted by MMA and other stories at the moment.

John

[Steve Yohe]

The 2010 ballot:

I FOLLOWED THE HISTORICAL PERFORMERS ERA
CANDIDATES
The Assassins (Tom Renesto & Jody Hamilton)
Red Bastien
Cowboy Bob Ellis
Yukon Eric
Hans Schmidt
Kinji Shibuya
Wilbur Snyder
John Tolos
Enrique Torres
Kurt & Karl Von Brauner w/Gentleman Saul Weingeroff
Tim "Mr. Wrestling" Woods
Bearcat Wright

I FOLLOWED THE MODERN PERFORMERS ERA
CANDIDATES
Gene & Ole Anderson
Carlos Colon
Edge
Owen Hart
Curt Hennig
Chris Jericho
Ivan Koloff
Fabulous Moolah
Pedro Morales
Dick Murdoch
Rey Mysterio
Rock & Roll Express
Sabu
Sgt. Slaughter
Jimmy Snuka
Sting
Mr. Wrestling II (Johnny Walker)

I FOLLOWED WRESTLING IN JAPAN
CANDIDATES
George Gordienko
Gran Hamada
Volk Han
Seiji Sakaguchi
Kensuke Sasaki
Kiyoshi Tamura
Steve Williams

I FOLLOWED WRESTLING IN MEXICO
CANDIDATES
Perro Aguayo Jr.
Atlantis
Cibernetico
Cien Caras
Karloff Lagarde
Blue Panther
L.A. Park
Huracan Ramirez
Vampiro
Villano III
Dr. Wagner Jr.
Dr. Wagner Sr.

I FOLLOWED WRESTLING IN EUROPE
CANDIDATES
Big Daddy
Henri DeGlane
Giant Haystacks
Horst Hoffman
Mick McManus
Kendo Nagasaki
Jackie Pallo
Rollerball Mark Rocco
Johnny Saint

NON-WRESTLERS (these picks do not count against the ten wrestler maximum)
Lou Albano
Bill Apter
Jim Crockett Jr.
Gary Hart
Jerry Jarrett
Gorilla Monsoon
Dr. Alfonso Morales
Don Owen
Jesse Ventura
Kent Walton

[Steve Yohe]

HISTORICAL PERFORMERS
CANDIDATES

The Assassins (Tom Renesto & Jody Hamilton)--I resist voting for teams. If there was a tag team HOF I would vote for them.

Red Bastien--In another year, I might have voted for Red. Great worker who was a star, but not a national pushed guy, who drew large numbers. Major tag wrestler. Very popular his whole life. Great person to go along with a good career.

Cowboy Bob Ellis--One of the major stars of the 60's but seemed to disappear after awhile. He didn't draw huge in LA & I was impressed with his work. Didn't have major matches. Did nothing in Japan. Tall guy with bad balance. Looked good but was better suited for playing basketball. Someone might be able to make an argument for him that would change my mind, but I don't think it's going to happen.

Yukon Eric--His time as a star was short & I can't see him as a major worker.

Hans Schmidt---The Stan Hansen of the 50's. No Brainer. Got my vote.

Kinji Shibuya--Best Japanese heal of all time. Could work & talk. Had it all & wrestled everywhere. If you booked him halfass, he would draw for you. Great as single wrestler & as tag performer. A fun heel. Got my vote.

Wilbur Snyder-Still needs a historian to champion for him. One of the border line guys.

John Tolos--Wasn't a national singles star, but I loved him. I was a fanboy but I couldn't vote for him.

Enrique Torres--If I had a vote left, I would have voted for him.

Kurt & Karl Von Brauner w/Gentleman Saul Weingeroff--I avoid voting for teams.

Tim "Mr. Wrestling" Woods--No....maybe someday.

Bearcat Wright--The second best black performer of his time. Huge draw at times. I would have wasted a vote on him to keep him on the ballot but couldn't. He had a lot of negatives & I fear he might not get 10%.

THE MODERN PERFORMERS ERA
CANDIDATES

Gene & Ole Anderson--I avoid teams.

Carlos Colon--I'm bias...fuck him.

Edge--Too early

Owen Hart--No...not enough.

Curt Hennig--No...Not on top enough.

Chris Jericho--To early

Ivan Koloff---Great career. Wins over Bruno put history behind him. I liked his work. I voted for him.

Fabulous Moolah--No

Pedro Morales--Yes I voted for him. I saw him in LA & he drew as champion in NYC. He was a very good worker in my eyes.

Dick Murdoch--Still border line. Didn't have a vote for him.

Rey Mysterio--Some day, if his career ends right.

Rock & Roll Express--I avoid teams.

Sabu---No.

Sgt. Slaughter--Good worker who drew in the WWF but I didn't feel it.

Jimmy Snuka--No

Sting--No...maybe we're all wrong about him.

Mr. Wrestling II (Johnny Walker)--No

WRESTLING IN JAPAN
CANDIDATES
George Gordienko---No. Thesz put him over in HOOKER, but that's about all.

Gran Hamada--No

Volk Han--My idol, he got my vote.

Seiji Sakaguchi--Needs more hilights pointed out to me. I saw him & liked him OK in LA....but nothing in Japan stands out.

Kensuke Sasaki--No

Kiyoshi Tamura--I voted for him, because I voided for Han. Maybe a fanboy vote.

Steve Williams---He was good in AJW but...no.

WRESTLING IN MEXICO

Perro Aguayo Jr.--Too early

Atlantis--Next year

Cibernetico--No. He sucks.

Cien Caras--No brainer. Got my vote. Great agrument can be made for him.

Karloff Lagarde--I another year, he would get my vote.

Blue Panther---Got my vote.

L.A. Park---He can wait.

Huracan Ramirez--No

Vampiro--No

Villano III--No, maybe next year

Dr. Wagner Jr.--No

Dr. Wagner Sr. --No

WRESTLING IN EUROPE

Big Daddy--I haven't pushed for Man Mountain Dean, Maurice Tillet, Primo Carnera, Danno O'Mahoney, or any other fat guy, so forget Daddy baby.

Henri DeGlane--Yes no brainer. Olympic champion, beat Ed Lewis for title & took it to France. Major in Montreal & Boston.

Giant Haystacks--When Dean, Tillet, & Carnera get it, I'll think about it.

Horst Hoffman---Had major match in AJW but no.

Mick McManus--Heard I should vote for him but no.

Kendo Nagasaki--No...never.

Jackie Pallo--No

Rollerball Mark Rocco--No but I could be talked into it some day.

Johnny Saint---He got my fanboy vote.

NON-WRESTLERS (these picks do not count against the ten wrestler maximum)
Lou Albano--Never
Bill Apter--No but maybe some other time
Jim Crockett Jr.-No
Gary Hart--No
Jerry Jarrett--No
Gorilla Monsoon--No
Dr. Alfonso Morales-- I voted yes
Don Owen--No
Jesse Ventura--Never...maybe after I vote Moolah in.
Kent Walton--I don't know who this is?

[Tomer]

[matt farmer]

Glad I got a chance to read Steve's vote. I'm thinking about mine now, in fact I may send mine out tonight. Similar to Steve's but I've got a few more I'm voting for from Mexico. I've always felt that with a country that actually addresses it's history, has so few acknowledged.

Yohe gave me inspiration to do just what he did.

[matt farmer]

Okay...I'm biting off Steve's idea here hahaha.

HISTORICAL PERFORMERS
CANDIDATES

The Assassins (Tom Renesto & Jody Hamilton)-- No. If there was a tag team division, and I think there should be then they would.

Red Bastien--No. I'm really on the fence here though. Red is one of those guys that tomorrow I will have changed my mind on.

Cowboy Bob Ellis--No. If this was a St. Louis Hall of Fame maybe. But I just don't see him as one.

Yukon Eric--No. As a star maybe, but I'm not sure he is there yet for me.

Hans Schmidt---No. Steve said it right when he compared him with Stan Hansen. He may have been one of the biggest box office heels of the 50's.

Kinji Shibuya--Yes. What really got me was reading his Observer bio, then I went back through my results in the Northwest and he was a headliner here. Then I looked at my attendance research and he was a big star in many places. I haven't seen a lot of his work, but have heard he was a good worker.

Wilbur Snyder-No.

John Tolos--No. Once again, his obit helped. But what really got me thinking was his work once again in the Northwest. I knew he was a star in other places but he drew some huge arena (10,000+) crowds here in the Northwest were those things were extremely rare at that time. That showed me he could get over better than most heels.

Enrique Torres--No. Not this year.

Kurt & Karl Von Brauner w/Gentleman Saul Weingeroff--No. The Assassins or Ole & Gene would go in first. Heck Antonino Rocca & Miguel Perez would too.

Tim "Mr. Wrestling" Woods--No.

Bearcat Wright--No. But I think I will next year if he's on the ballots. It's hard to not look hard at this guy who drew every where he went. I guess he has some negatives about him, but really most do if they were successful.

THE MODERN PERFORMERS ERA
CANDIDATES

Gene & Ole Anderson--No. One of the first teams I would vote for though.

Carlos Colon--Yes. A guy that has headlined that many huge stadium crowds as him, ran a hugely (at times) successful promotion and is a house hold name in his country.

Edge--No. Too early

Owen Hart--No. I don't think he will ever get my vote. Because if I do it's a sympothy vote.

Curt Hennig--No. I will vote for Curt before Owen though.

Chris Jericho--No. For as strong as he is pushed, he should be 10 times bigger. Never been a big fan of his work, has improved on promos though.

Ivan Koloff---No. I voted for him a few years ago, but this year there are guys I think are stronger candidates.

Fabulous Moolah--No.

Pedro Morales--No.

Dick Murdoch--No. Doubt I will ever vote for him, because as gifted as he was he never pushed himself to excel and I think that is what makes a Hall of Famer.

Rey Mysterio--No. Not right now, let's see were the next few years takes us. For as good as Rey is, and how much merchandise he sells he still hasn't had that big career push or run on top. His numbers are good, but I want to see him get that big number one face run. I know he will do well but he has to get the push.

Rock & Roll Express--No. I like the Rock n' Rolls, but a team division would have to be created.

Sabu---No.

Sgt. Slaughter--No.

Jimmy Snuka--No.

Sting--No. For as hard as he was pushed he never became a good draw.

Mr. Wrestling II (Johnny Walker)--No.

WRESTLING IN JAPAN
CANDIDATES
George Gordienko---No. Good shooter, but I've seen enough of his work to say no. He drew okay in Europe, but I've tried to research more about George as a draw with no luck.

Gran Hamada--No. He's got the talent, just not the push.

Volk Han--No. Big fan of his work, great worker at his style unfortunatley if you only have 50 matches in your career it hurts your looks in my eyes.

Seiji Sakaguchi--No. For his push, he never lived up to it. He was the Inoki's Jumbo. But Jumbo was so much better.

Kensuke Sasaki--No. Few have put up big stadium numbers, but I just see him at the right place at the right, or wrong time. What I mean is if he debuted 7 or 8 years earlier he may have done better.

Kiyoshi Tamura--No. To me he's stronger than Volk, but still not a Maeda or Takada level draw who even though they worked a very limited schedule were super draws.

Steve Williams---No. I really want to vote for Steve, but I don't think this is the year for it.

WRESTLING IN MEXICO

Perro Aguayo Jr.--Yes. I know some will question why I vote for Aguayo Jr and not Mysterio Jr. Well Aguayo Jr has had that top level heel push, and for a few years was the hottest heel in the country and a proven draw. Sure Mysterio may be a bigger name, he has not succeeded as a very top guy. Rey will get in I'm sure weather I vote or not, but I'm a big fan of Perro Aguayo Jr, and the times I have seen him live felt he was one of the best in the world! In fact about 8 years ago I saw him work some indy's in Mexico and felt he was the best face in the world. Then 5 years later I thought he was the best heel in the world. Just a super worker who has drawn on top as well. The only negative was him breaking away to form his own company as it took him out of the spotlight. But I think in the long run it will work in his favor.

Atlantis--Yes. Has been a top worker and a top draw for decades. In fact I think in the last 5 years he has gotten better. One of the only Luchadores to win Match of the Year in the Observer. The last few years his trio with Ultimo Guerrero & Rey Bucanero has been a hit.

Cibernetico--No. He sucks. (Took the words right out of my mouth Steve)

Cien Caras--YES! I felt Cien was one of the most over looked luchadores in Mexico's History. I've been pushing for him for some time now.

Karloff Lagarde--Yes. Karloff was a huge star in the 50's. How huge? He was one of the rare holders of three major titles at one time. On June 3rd 1956 he got the National Welterweight Title, then 6 months later on January 31, 1957 won the NWA Welterweight title. He held both of those belts at the same time. And was one of the top draws during this period.

In 1964 he beat El Santo for the National Middleweight Title as well. Lagarde was also part of a legendary tag team with Rene Guajardo.

Blue Panther--No. Maybe in a few years

L.A. Park--No. Also in a few years.

Huracan Ramirez--Yes. Daniel Garcia is one of the 10 most famous luchadores in the history of Lucha Libre. If that's not enough he was a big cross over star, as the character El Huracan Ramirez was a movie star (Garcia did not own the rights to the gimmick). He was a multi-time champion when titles meant something in that country. He also is the person who made famous the move "La Huracarrana". Yes the move that is used in nearly every match today, he was the one that made it famous and it was named after him. Ramirez was not just a star in Mexico, but also Columbia (were he had a famous wrestler vs boxer match), CUba, Guatamala, Panama, Ecuador, and Bolivia. The mask of Huracan Ramirez is one of the 5 most recognizable in the country.

Vampiro--No.

Villano III--No. Next year

Dr. Wagner Jr.--No. I can see voting for him in the future though.

Dr. Wagner Sr. --Yes. Along with tag partner Angel Blanco they formed the 60's most famous tag team known as "La Ola Blanco" (The White Wave). Box y Lucha named them tag team of the year in 1966, and during the late 60's and early 70's they were huge draws. During that time El Solitario (who himself is a top 10 most famous luchadore) became their partner and as a trio drew huge through out the country. But what really set Mexico on fire was their break up. The White Wave had a major run with Solitario and his various partners like El Santo, Mil Mascaras, or Blue Demon.

By the early 70's Dr. Wagner was one of the country top wrestlers. And was considered one of the countries best workers. In 1974 Wagner won the NWA Light Heavyweight Title, which was the countries top belts. He was the holder of that title for a good part of the decade, and was one of the guys that really put El Canek on the map dropping the belt to him in January of 1978.

WRESTLING IN EUROPE

Big Daddy--Yes. Too big of a star and had too large of an impact on wrestling in the UK not to be in. Over looking Shirley Crabtree would be similar to over looking Gorgeous George in the US.

Henri DeGlane--Yes. He was the Kurt Angle, who was used better on top than Kurt was.

Giant Haystacks--No.

Horst Hoffman---No.

Mick McManus--No. But next year I think will be his turn.

Kendo Nagasaki--No.

Jackie Pallo--No. He may be Hall of Fame material though.

Rollerball Mark Rocco--No. A big fan of Rocco's. But not sure if he was a big enough player to get the vote.

Johnny Saint---No. Pallo & McManus will have to go in first.

NON-WRESTLERS (these picks do not count against the ten wrestler maximum)
Lou Albano--Never
Bill Apter--No. But seeing his name makes me think?
Jim Crockett Jr.--No. Not sure why, he has a strong chance.
Gary Hart--No.
Jerry Jarrett--No. Not yet, I don't want to get greedy with my non-wrestler votes.
Gorilla Monsoon--No.
Dr. Alfonso Morales--Yes. He's Mexico's Jim Ross or Gordon Solie.
Don Owen--Yes. Too much success and longevity. He was the Godfather of a region that was widely successful for a long period of time that most don't know anything about. His longevity is second to none in this country and while he didn't draw huge arena numbers, he did draw consistently for decades. Along with Paul Boesch and Sam Muchnick he is one of the more respected promoters in an industry were respect for promoters is hard to come by.
Jesse Ventura--No.
Kent Walton--No. Not now, but I've got a feeling he is a Gordon Solie type who is the voice of Wrestling in the UK.

[kjh]

I think it's completely illogical voting for Perro Jr. while not voting for Rey, as Rey's by far the biggest star in Mexico today, while Perro Jr. is slumming in the indys. Moreover, a far bigger star in Mexico than Perro Jr. ever was. Especially when you won't vote for some wrestlers because it's too early.

[jdw]

[matt farmer]

I originally had Hans Schmidt (and John Tolos too) down to vote for him. But I really felt that Huracan Ramirez, Dr. Wagner and Karloff Lagarde were more important to vote in. In truth thoes three names are easily top 25 luchadores in the history of the country, and were far bigger stars in their respective countries than Hans was plus all three have great longevity as well.

Not illogical at all voting Perro over Rey. While I will conceed that Rey is a bigger star, because their TV is so strong in the country now. But so is John Cena and Undertaker too. WWE is the biggest promotion in Mexico.

The reason I voted for Perro over Rey is simple. Rey has not be pushed as a headler (except for a few spurts here and there), sure he is over put he has never been pushed correctly. If his career ended tomorrow I'm not sure if I could vote for him as a HOF'er.

Perro Aguayo Jr on the other hand has been a main eventer for the last 12 years or so. He was on top in AAA during a very strong period, then went to CMLL were he was the top heel. He was a part of the run with Mistico that set box office records in Mexico and his merchandise (Perros del Mal) t-shirts were the equivelant to the Stone Cold 3:16 t-shirts.

Rey has been a very over mid-carder with short glimpses of main eventing. While Perro has been a solid main eventer. The difference between the two is Rey is working for a global company, while Perro has worked for two national companies. In their respective companies Perro has been far more valuable. I want to see Rey headline more, and have a run on top longer.

For as talented as someone is, in my eyes they need to have that run on top. Being pushed by your respective company is extremely important in how you are viewed.

[jdw]

[Steve Yohe]

Well it started out as Inoki being Baba's Jumbo, but he got too big.

Baba was Rikidozan's Jumbo.

If you were going to pick out Sakaguchi's biggest match, you'd be pressed to figure out which one. He has no huge hilight in his career. Had JWA to himself for a short period.

[matt farmer]

[matt farmer]

[Steve Yohe]

In my post I screwed up & said I was impressed with Bob Ellis work & I forgot to put "n't" on the end of "was". He never looked good to me & I saw him wrestle The Destroyer & The Bruiser.

I would put Schmidt in front of everyone this year. He is the guy I would push.

Yohe