The OtherArena Forum IndexThe OtherArena Forum IndexThe OtherArena Forum Index The OtherArena
"Best not to think about it. I know that's a problem for you... not thinking. " -Steve Yohe
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

AEW Dynamite Thoughts
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 9, 10, 11, 12  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The OtherArena Forum Index -> Wrestling
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Yakuza Rich



Joined: 01 Aug 2006
Posts: 808

PostPosted: Sat Oct 17, 2020 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I basically gave up watching Dynamite after the supposed 5-star match between the Best Friends and Santana/Ortiz. It was 2-stars at best and its best.

I tried watching the Brodie Lee vs. Cody dogcollar match and it was pretty good, but again...they blew their wad with the booking of this match.

I've stopped caring about the ratings. It's pretty obvious to see that they have 750K loyal fans that they basically got from Vince driving them away and at this rate they are not going to expand and even if they did, I would not likely give a damn about it.

I'm done defending Meltzer. He's really destroying his credibility on Twitter with how he defends AEW. He's definitely got a dog in this fight and anytime anybody criticizes AEW he just says to the effect that previous generations used to criticize Harley, Flair, Steamboat, etc. And when that fails he cites that his teenage son and friends, who Dave admits are not fans, like it.

Also Dave said that Kenny Omega has better psychology than Jumbo did.






YR




YR
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
corrado



Joined: 01 Aug 2006
Posts: 5018
Location: LI

PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2020 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well I still watch and enjoy certain parts to it. It's much more enjoyable and better than the WWE.

However new Japan is still the best wrestling promotion today.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
Yakuza Rich



Joined: 01 Aug 2006
Posts: 808

PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2020 5:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's obvious that they have a very loyal fanbase of 750K and about 0.32 in the demo and they play to that fanbase.

The frustrating part to me is that if they didn't play to that fanbase as much...that fanbase would still be there and they would grow. All they did was take fans from the WWE instead of creating new ones.

Unfortunately, we know how that story goes...eventually those fans either get bored with the product or go back to the WWE and because no new fans are created, the promotion eventually collapses.

And again, this is the time to strike. The WWE is down, networks see the issues with MMA programming and how pro wrestling can provide a better alternative.

I did find it funny that a few days ago on Twitter Meltzer tweeted how no teenagers and students at his Stanford class talk about or follow pro wrestling. This after quite a few tweets where I've told him that pro wrestling is dying off and the universe of fans are getting smaller and you almost never see anybody wearing pro wrestling apparel out in public anymore and he tried to refute all of those claims and how the indies were doing 50+ shows a week prior to COVID-19.

When somebody says something negative about the business with something negative about AEW attached to it, he finds a way to spin everything as a positive and 'you need to learn' and 'you don't understand.' But when somebody says something negative about the business with the WWE attached to it..you're suddenly spot on.





HoC
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Yakuza Rich



Joined: 01 Aug 2006
Posts: 808

PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have been watching some of Ring of Honor's PURE tournament.

The rules are the following:

1. Each contestant is allowed 3 rope breaks, whether it's for submission or pinfall. After their 3 rope breaks are used up, then all submissions and pins with the ropes are legal.

2. No closed fist punches to the head. A wrestler gets a warning for the first closed fiist punch to the face and then loses a rope break on the second punch to the face.

3. Wrestlers are subject to a 20 count if they go to the floor

It has created an incredible dynamic where we see far more shoot style wrestling combined with traditional pro wrestling maneuvers and with more interesting stories to tell.

The Fred Yehi vs. Travis Williams match was spectacular. I haven't felt that way about a pro wrestling match in a long time. Probably since Riddle vs. Thatcher Fight Pit match.

This kinda reminded me of a mix of BattlArts combined with a bit of Misawa vs. Kawada from say '93.

Because of the rules, the style is so different and it feels more 'real' in the sense that while I don't think either Williams or Yehi are 'the toughest man int he world', but with the rules I get the feeling that they may be the best at this sport with these rules.

They also used some great psychology by not going to rope breaks for every submission as they didn't want to use all of their rope breaks too early. So they would successfully block submissions with 2 or 3 rope breaks left and then save other rope break spots for more important parts of the match.

And the lack of punches thrown means I don't have to watch guys slap their thigh on punches and it makes the chops more of a logical strike to use in the match.

The only thing I don't quite care for is that matches where the time limit expires they go to a judges decision. I don't think that has ever drawn well in pro wrestling and I don't think it's a highlight of boxing either.

The promos need a lot of work. They aren't bad ,but they just aren't any good. The promos come off like a HHH promo...kind of like they read a handbook on how wrestlers are to cut a promo. And with most modern day promos, none of them know how to actually sell themselves and their match to the audience and there's a bit too much post match congratulatory stuff going on.

But otherwise this is really great and I could watch a promotion with these rules and this level of work.




YR
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Yakuza Rich



Joined: 01 Aug 2006
Posts: 808

PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2020 6:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AEW has apparently put together a deal with Impact as they did a screwjob finish to give Omega the title with Don Callis. Sting also showed up last night.

A lot of the wrestlers from Impact and AEW are friends, but nobody watches Impact and its brand integrity is the drizzling shits at this point. Although if it gets Callis into a serious announcing role like he does for New Japan, then that's a plus as the announcing crew for AEW...Jim Ross included...is dreadful. Excalibur has some potential, but he misses too much out on helping convey the story of the match as he's too busy rattling off every move done.

Anyway, Sting needs to be there to give the rub. I doubt he'll work anywhere near to full time. But if he can give the rub to somebody like Darby Allin then it's a good move. Problem is that Khan's biggest weakness as a booker is his inability to develop and sustain momentum.

But the finish to Moxley vs. Omega just showed that AEW is hardly an alternative and is becoming more and more like TNA/WWE except it doesn't have the stank of Russo or McMahon attached to it. And they do allow for 20+ minute matches. That seems to keep their viewership of 750K loyal followers satisfied, but I have my doubts if it will ever grow the company.






YR
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Yakuza Rich



Joined: 01 Aug 2006
Posts: 808

PostPosted: Sat Dec 05, 2020 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The AEW with Sting episode did killer numbers (by today's standards). 912K viewers, 0.46 in the demo. They did it correctly by having the segment in the middle of the show and then that got on the social media platforms and brought viewers over to watch.

However, I really thought the segment was underwhelming. It was the same ole shit of the heels are beating the faces down and then the lights go out, the heels stand in the ring like doofuses and then the surprise is revealed with theme music and a jumbotron.

I can't say that a promotion should NEVER do this AGAIN, but since it's done all of the time it's once again showing how AEW really isn't an alternative...it's basically WWE but not stupid enough to try and insult the fans and they let the guys wrestle 20 minute matches that they aren't good enough to wrestle for that long.

Sting is 61 years old and signed a multi-year deal and won't come cheap. I find it hard to believe that the company is making that much of a profit, if at all, with the contracts I've heard they are paying some of these guys combined with the low level deal they have with TNT. In essence, they keep wasting money on guys like Sting for a bump in the ratings for 1 night and if the owner wasn't a billionaire and was say as wealthy as Cary Silkin, things would be much different in terms of the long term health of the company.

Apparently Impact and AEW now have an agreement. I do think getting more talent could never hurt, but it does come at the risk of hurting AEW's brand integrity being associated with an inferior product. My guess is that since nobody...and I mean nobody...watches Impact then the negative impact will be minimal.

I suspect they'll do something like 875K/0.38 next week. But the Sting bump will be shortlived.




YR
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Yakuza Rich



Joined: 01 Aug 2006
Posts: 808

PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2020 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

After some bigger numbers the past 2 weeks that were sparked by Sting's appearance and then Shaq's appearance, the ratings fell to 806K and you guessed it...0.32 in the demo.

This is symbolic of AEW's run. They have a loyal viewership of 750K fans with about 300K coming from the demo and they do not have the ability to create momentum with their talent or the show itself. The idea of bringing Sting in would be to give the rub and pass the torch to the younger talent. The idea of bringing in Shaq would be to get new viewers to come in and to keep a percentage of those viewers. But in just 1 week that doesn't appear to have happened.

It's easy to see, if you not willfully blind to it, that AEW has already peaked. Now it's becoming clear that it will never hit the 1.5 million viwers mark unless NXT stops being on Wednesday nights and they hit another celebrity appearance like Lebron James.

And this will get them a $840K/week TV deal, which sounds great until you factor in that it's a low level deal by TNT standards and AEW has to pay all of their expenses which include renting buildings, paying the talent and the behind the scenes people and they're adding guys like Sting that don't come cheap and all of the expenses that come with shooting their 'cinematic matches.'

Simply put, I doubt they are making much in the way of profit in the end. Enough to actually be profitable, but if this wasn't a passion project for a billionaire's son and was instead being done by a real world CEO looking to make the company a profit...AEW would be looking to be sold.

I watched a bit of last night's show, the most I've watched of AEW Dynamite since the Spring. The strengths I see is that the wrestler's and Khan don't have a tarnished name for those loyal viewers. It's one thing to suck, but it's another to have burned the fans either with booking that insulted the fans' intelligence, shoving the wrong talent down the fans' throats or doing evil things like treating the talent poorly.

But this is not an alternative to the WWE. It's just more sports entertainment. The difference is that from a talent perspective AEW comes off as much more like amateur hour. Whether it's their in-ring work, their look or their promos/angles it's just not at what you would expect from a major league wrestling organization.

One of the big issues for AEW is that there are very few veterans that have worked for major league promotions that are actually in the ring and working feuds (of course, you would need an actual feud first). They have Malenko and Jerry Lynn as agents, but actually working in the ring it comes down to Cody (who only worked for WWE), Dustin, Jericho, Chris Daniels and Kazarian. Generally what passes for a 'veteran' are guys like Miro who made his debut in the WWE in 2014 or Chuck Taylor who has been relegated to the indies throughout his career.

I think not having the WWE stink on them provides them with some potential, but until they figure out how to book better and be more critical of the talent they add to the roster they will continue to see more of the same in terms of popularity.






YR
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Steve Yohe



Joined: 01 Aug 2006
Posts: 3159
Location: Wonderful Montebello CA

PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2020 5:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

They should just play old PWG tapes.--Yohe
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Yakuza Rich



Joined: 01 Aug 2006
Posts: 808

PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2020 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I only watched a little of last nights episode. It fell to under 800K in viewership. Meltzer just tweeted that their numbers are 'way up' compared to last year at this time, but they are only up due to signing Sting (which didn't come cheap and they have a long term commitment to) and Shaq's appearance. They didn't have those last year at this time so it's not an apples to apples comparison.

There's just a lack of starpower throughout the show. From an optics standpoint, nobody really looks like a star. Even Jericho, who was a star looks like a shell of his former self.

Even MJF has issues due to his lack of height and he's just not consistently on TV enough to gain any momentum.

The Young Bucks match was typical as it started out nicely and then they couldn't help themselves with the 'quail dive' spot. Also part of their tag division's style is to have one wrestler taken out and then he hides outside the ring for an extended period of time only to get involved at such an opportune time. That gets annoying.

A lot of guys have been taking Jim Ross for criticizing their work. Of course the guys that are really good like Dax and Darby stood behind JR.

I just think that the fanboys, including Meltzer, are too much into the fact that there's a major league promotion that isn't owned by Vince or a non-wrestling fan idiot like Dixie Carter and they can't recognize the warts and the issues the company has.

Their saving grace is Shahid Khan's money. It will likely keep AEW in business for a long time. But the long term prognosis of the company and the industry as a whole is not looking good.




YR
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Yakuza Rich



Joined: 01 Aug 2006
Posts: 808

PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2020 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Huber aka Brodie Lee has passed away at the age of 43 years old due to a non-COVID related lung issue. Some are reporting that it was a lung infection. I was thinking he may have suffered from an embolism (same thing Jesse Ventura had that forced his retirement).

Very sad day. My deepest sympathies are with his family.





YR
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Yakuza Rich



Joined: 01 Aug 2006
Posts: 808

PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ratings for AEW Dynamite.

11/4 - 717K/0.30
11/11 - 764K/030
11/18 - 850K/0.37
11/25 (day before T-Day) - 712K/0.26
12/2 (Sting debut) - 913K/0.42
12/9 (Shaq appearance) - 995K/0.45
12/16 - 806K/0.32
12/23 - 775K/0.32
12/30 (Huber tribute) - 977K/0.40
1/7 (Snoop appearance) - 662K/0.25

Non-Special Show Averages: 771K/0.31

Special Shows Average: 887K/0.38

Special Show Average (except last show): 962K/0.42


Last Year Averages (compared to this time): 840K/0.33


There should be reason for concern after the Snoop show. Snoop has a Q-Score comparable to Shaq's although Shaq is a former pro athlete and that could explain the bump in the ratings for an emulated sport.

But to fall off that dramatically in the ratings is disconcerting.

If the ratings continue to fall, I think it's an indicator that the people they drew from the 'special' shows just saw AEW as another version of WWE and had no interest in tuning in outside of the special appearances. And the diehard fans and frequent watchers may have been put off by the product looking more like the WWE (Snoop did a top rope splash spot in a match that looked awful).

Meltzer has been mum on this ratings drop while defending the appearance of Snoop.

I'd rather wait and see how the follow up ratings do to see if this was a weird anomaly or a trend. But if you look at last year's shows at this time versus the non special shows they are down ~8% in both total viewers and the demo. That's in line with other sports' ratings being down. One could chalk it up to the lack of live fans, but the fact of the matter is that less eyeballs are watching the product when there's no special celebrity appearance or tribute show.






YR
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Yakuza Rich



Joined: 01 Aug 2006
Posts: 808

PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I watched the Fenix vs. Omega main event from 1/6/21 Dynamite. It was touted as a MOTY candidate. The bad news is if this is the MOTY then 2021 is a bad year for pro wrestling. The good news is that it was a solid main event overall and more of the action AEW needs to put forth, particularly in main events. This match felt like a legitimate athletic contest and very NJPW main event in nature.

Meltzer's hyperbolic nature has Omega as one of the all time great in ring psychologists. Of course he loves Rey Fenix, but from what I've seen out of Fenix is that he's a great athlete, but with a low pro wrestling IQ. It's amazing how every time he's on TV I see him do some ridiculously stupid stuff for no reason.

From what I've seen from Omega, he's at his best working fast paced matches. The issue for him is that so many of the legit good workers are not athletic enough to keep pace with him and that forces them to slow down the match where Omega isn't nearly as good. And then the athletic workers that can keep up with Omega athletically tend to be inferior in the ring. So I was curious to see if the two could put something together that was beyond a typical Omega match as Fenix fits into the 'athletic but a mediocre worker' mode.

There's a lot of things to unpack here, but this shouldn't be a MOTY candidate because there was a lot of faultiness in the psychology or just bad ideas.

Early in the match Omega hits a devastating snap dragon suplex to the outside mat. Then he brings Fenix into the ring and hits the Kitaro Crusher, goes for hte pin and only gets a 2.0 count and then they go to their next set of spots with nothing registering on Fenix. They could have actually used these combined spots as the finisher as Fenix isn't a top tier singles wrestler for the company. But at the very least they could have used this more towards the second half of the match and make it look like a turning point in the match that almost put Fenix away. Instead they did it early, it didn't register and it just looked like part of a routine than an actual match.

Fenix did an incredible moonsault flip into a german suplex move. It was incredible to watch, I just wish they would do these Matcix type moves no more than once per episode instead of seeing them in every match.

Just like Fenix finally getting the advantage only to initiate a chip exchange from the knees with Omega for no reason other than to exchange chops. Fenix is the challenger who finally gets the momentum working in his favor and then he decides to exchange chops with Omega?

Anyway, they did an attempted Tornilla by Fenix which Omega countered with a knee except that there was no way in the world Fenix could have landed the Tornilla on Omega.

The revere 'rana on the 1 winged angel was a great counter and then Omega finally wins the match

This wasn't bad by any stretch. It was more of an athletic contest than a tranditional heel vs. face match. Although I think if they instituted more traditional heel vs. face elements it would have made the match better. Fenix can't sell worth a shit so any semblance of effective heel vs. face psychology is shot.

But outside of the illogical chop exchange this was more of what I look for from AEW. Not MOTY candidate worthy, but a good start to 2021.

I'd give this match * * 3/4






YR
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Yakuza Rich



Joined: 01 Aug 2006
Posts: 808

PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ratings rose back to 762K/0.30 for Dynamite.

I believe the drop in the previous week (662K/0.25) was due to the Capital Hill insurrection.

From all of this it appears that AEW has a loyal viewership of 750K/0.30.

About 10-15% of the viewers can be lost by major political happenings and they have a ceiling of a ~25% boost if they right celebrity or happening is going on with the show.

But between Sting's debut, Shaq's appearance and the Huber tribute show, it appears they have not gained any viewers. Furthermore, I know the political climate has changed these days, but pro wrestling used to never lose out to political happenings...or at least to this extent. Essentially, these 10-15% of their fans find pro wrestling to be better in politics than actual pro wrestling itself.






YR
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Steve Yohe



Joined: 01 Aug 2006
Posts: 3159
Location: Wonderful Montebello CA

PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 11:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I actually watched last night .... well the part I didn't sleep thru. Still looks like independent wrestling. A bunch of kids doing flips. I'm trying to understand what fans today think is good pro wrestling. I have no use for it.--- Yohe
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Yakuza Rich



Joined: 01 Aug 2006
Posts: 808

PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2021 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steve Yohe wrote:
I actually watched last night .... well the part I didn't sleep thru. Still looks like independent wrestling. A bunch of kids doing flips. I'm trying to understand what fans today think is good pro wrestling. I have no use for it.--- Yohe


Market research suggests that fans and prospective fans favor more athletic style of in-ring wrestling and has for a while. So a lot of the aerial high spots are in line with what the research suggests.

Having worked in market research and marketing focus groups though, I would say that I have my doubts about how accurate and effective it will be to use when it comes to wrestling. Focus groups may give high praise for a tope con hilo, but the context of how it was used may not quite translate. Pro wrestling is one of the few subjects on earth where less can truly be more and more can truly be less and market research cannot account for that.

The indie scene has a particular style of wrestling because indie promotions cannot sustain weekly shows with television to where fans can follow along with angles, storylines, personas, etc. Thus the draw to going to an indie show is the action in the ring and that is more along the lines of doing athletic spots rather than good ole fashioned psychology, mat wrestling, selling and building up to a spot. It also is influenced by the talent pool being wrestlers with smaller builds and how popular video games and video game fight style has become.

With that said, indie wrestling fans are a small niche. The worst kept secret about AEW Dynamite is that it's a low level TV deal. The pro wrestling fan universe is rapidly shrinking due to the WWE's dominance of the market forthe past 20 years and the fans they are driving away due to their current product.

It's clear that AEW isn't picking up enough of the fans that are leaving the WWE. And that indicates that the only way pro wrestling is going to stop the bleeding is if the WWE gets their act together. It's clear that the WWE fans leaving the WWE still view AEW as the minor leagues and inferior to the WWE brand.

This is one of the astute points you brought up when AEW first started...they really needed to bring former WWE guys in and job them out to AEW guys so the AEW product/brand is deemed superior to the WWE product. The problem was that there's too small of a talent pool out there not attached to being former WWE talent. Guys like Jericho weren't going to job their careers out unless they got an ungodly payday. And somebody like Cody did help put together all of this.

The reality probably lies somewhere between...being very careful as to what former WWE talent they bring in and put over while jobbing out the rest. But that would take an excellent booker who could accept the cold, hard truth about the situation they are in due to the state of pro wrestling over the previous 30 years.

Khan is a bad booker and I don't think he wants to own a promotion that would job out wrestlers that he was a fan of.

I just see AEW as a better functioning version of TNA in the end. They'll likely never produce more than 1M/0.45 in ratings on a consistent basis. Then a portion of those fans will leave and they won't get enough replacement fans and it will still be good enough to get them on TV, but the promotion will still be running due to Khan's deep pockets and this being a passion project of his.





YR
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The OtherArena Forum Index -> Wrestling All times are GMT - 7 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 9, 10, 11, 12  Next
Page 10 of 12

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
The OtherArena topic RSS feed 


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group