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2016/2017 NBA Thread
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corrado



Joined: 01 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And that was before tonight's game which they were denied perfection, as the Cavs came back to avoid the sweep, and to force a game 5.

Game though was riddled by lots of shoddy officiating throughout the game. Led by Draymond Green escaping a 2nd technical that would've gotten him ejected. Instead Steve Kerr somehow got Green's 1st technical, something that the refs said was Draymond's, up until that moment. Van Gundy repeated how bad that call was for the rest of the game.
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corrado



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Warriors pull it off. Durant may have gotten the torch from Lebron this series. It justified his controversial move last July. He played like the former MVP that he was.

Its going to be debated though, if this was the greatest team that was ever assembled. The Game 4 loss may have taken a little bit away from that. And maybe if Kawhi was healthy in the Conference finals, they could've gotten a little bit of a test.

Cavs are going to be in a bind, salary cap wise Nearly all of their key players will be back. They'll have no room to be big players this offseason. So the pressure's on the Celts to improve their team.
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jdw
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 11:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Congrats to the Dubs. Amazing season, amazing run that doesn't look over.

KD was 35-8-5 shooting 57/47/93 which is INSANE. It wasn't like he was shooting layups to get that .556 FG% - 8 3P attempts a game, and a lot of high difficulty shots that he makes look easy. He was exactly what he was expected to be when he came in - the player who could take over when the offense seemed to hit the skids.

I think Steph's 27-8-9 for the series can put to bed his performances in the last two finals. He was 30-9-9 shooting 46/43/91 in the four wins. He had a poor Game 4, but was strong in the other four.

34-12-10 on 56/39 shooting from the field... that's insane. Lebron is the best player in the game. Like I said earlier, if you switched KD and Bron, the Warriors win *easier*. The Cavs are an excellent team, but it's really due to Lebron. They don't go anywhere without Bron.

* * * * *

Curry, Iguodala, Livingston, Zaza, West, McGee and Clark are all unrestricted free agents. They can resign all of them, and the new arena means they can go into the luxury tax and not hurt from it.

Steph is going to want to be PAID at a certain level because he's been so underpaid his entire career.

They likely want to find the money to keep Iggy and Livingston. Iggy is making good coin, so that one might be interesting to see how they make it work. Shaun seems pretty happy where he's at, but probably doesn't want to take a pay cut to stay. He has a brutal $10M cap hold, so my guess is that if he's staying, they'll sign him instantly for less to eliminate that higher number. I hope he stays... just one of my favorite stories over the past few years.

McGee will likely want to get a decent contract, and will probably be priced out. Zaza came at a discount on a cheapo contract. Probably doesn't want an insane amount to stay, but it doesn't take much to price himself out of the team.

Clark is going to be interesting. He's just barely crack $1M once in his career. Cheap cap hold, but someone out there is going to pay him $5M to $8M. The Dubs aren't paying him that.

I wonder if West stays, and at what price. I'd like him to stay as I think with another year of playing with these guys he'll be in even more synch with them. Smart player, giving player and does what needs to be done. The problem is that he's not young (37 next year), and at times his body doesn't let him do what his mind sees. I think in a long slog of a regular season, especially one where the starters probably aren't going to play as much next year as they did this year, he's a valuable guys to have around.

* * * * *

The Cavs will be interesting to watch.

Brons kinda-sorta tossed his teammates under the bus in the post game press conference. He started off by making a point of talking about the game / series "personally". The tone and vibe came across pretty clear as:

"I did my shit... 34-12-10... and it's not even like I was gunning. It's the rest of the guys who weren't up to the level to win this."

Bron hates losing. Those last few years in his first run in CLE killed him in not having good enough teammates to win a title. That first year in Miami killed him, and at the end of that last season in Miami he saw a team that time had passed and didn't really have a shot at winning another title. That loss two years ago killed him, and you could see how the series going last year was killing him until things turned around. Dude hates losing. He knows he's the best in the game, and he wants to have a chance to win every year.

He looks at his team and doesn't really think it's good enough to beat the Dubs. He has to average 34-12-10 to win a game, make two others close... and still lose the series 4-1.

This team would have been broken up and retooled if Green hadn't been suspended and the Dubs won in 5. Winning the series gave them a false sense of being a better "team" than they really are. What they are is Lebron, who makes every player on that team better.

There are some good role players, and a decent #2 in Irving who still has massive holes on the defensive side and consistent health problems. Terrific offensive player... well... terrific scorer, since he's not really a creator for anyone else. You can't see what he did in Games 3 & 4 and not think he's a really, really, really talented player.

Love remains an issue. He has offensive talents, though they don't work consistently well against a team like the Dubs who have so much close out ability and defensive smarts. He has no transition value. His defense is horrible. You could perhaps play him on a team that had four other good defensive players (and some support on the bench) that could cover for his ass. But Irving is a bad defensive player as well. It's a problem when you roll out two bad defensive players, and Bron having to pick his spots over the course of a season (and even a game) because he has so much responsibilities on both sides of the ball.

Thompson is a good workhorse. But he's also pulling down $16M to $18M over the next three years. He's not a rim protector. He's not much on offense. It's just a lot of money.

Smith and Shumpert combine to make $23M next year, and Smith has years beyond that. Are they getting $23M out of those guys?

Frye is making $7M next year. His regular season numbers look okay for that amount, but in the end he couldn't be played much against the Dubs. I doubt he's the only Western Conference team that he would get played off the court against. $7M is a lot of money for a guy you can't play in the Finals.

This is messy to fix.

I suspect that the Cavs are going to try to trade Love. The problem is that he has 3 more years on the contract making $22M to $25M. There aren't a lot of teams that are going to want him at that price given how much he's been exposed over the past three years. Even the "comeback" season this year can't wash it away when people saw how limited he was in the Final.

Kyrie actually is their most moveable piece. The problem is getting real value back for him that improves the team. He's not easy to replace.

Korver has a $9M cap hold, so either they sign him cheap instantly (which he might be okay with) or they renounce him. Playing with Bron does tend to make guys sign cheap for that chance at a ring. Korver has made okay money in his career, so he might go cheap multiyear for another shot at a time.

They've got the Taxpayer Mid-Level Exception which is $5M. They've got about $9M in trade exceptions. Not much flexibility.
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corrado



Joined: 01 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 5:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mcgee was woefully underused during the Finals. He would've been a better starter than Zaza. I can see him moving on. Hopefully he continues his comeback story. He would need a quality organization to continue it.

I can see West staying, or retiring. He's much better as the tough guy than Zaza. He certainly is lucky he wasnt tossed though.

I dont think I see Iggy playing for another team. I can see him taking less to come back. That's going to be a "good problem" for the Warriors. everyone is going to flock to them to get a ring. But there's only room for 15. Plus they do a better job at drafting and playing young players than lots of their peers. Mccaw had a big role in the series-clincher. I can see him overtaking Livingston.

JR had his good moments (keeping them alive with his 3's) and his usual head-scratching moments (his role in the west altercation) He'll be fine with them. I can see them trying to do something with Shump and Deron Williams. the less said about Deron, the better.

My friend suggested that they pull off the Melo-Love trade. I still dont see that happening. But then again, these are the Knicks. They'll fall for the trap.
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Steve Yohe



Joined: 01 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Melo isn't mentally able to play in a series like then. Bad idea. I think he'd hide from the chance.---Yohe
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guren



Joined: 31 Jul 2006
Posts: 1205

PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jdw wrote:
Kyrie actually is their most moveable piece. The problem is getting real value back for him that improves the team. He's not easy to replace.


I would explore the possibility of a sign and trade with the Clippers for Chris Paul. CP3's window fits in well with LeBron's, plus they are obviously buddies who presumably would like to play together. CP3 is worlds better on defense compared to Irving, and he adds the extra playmaker that LeBron craves. *If* Paul informs the Clippers that he is leaving, the Clippers probably couldn't do much better than Kyrie. This trade would provide the added bonus that the Clippers would go back to being the Clippers for at least the next few years. :-)

If CP3 is not an option, I would basically stand pat and try to upgrade the bench. I don't think the Cavs could trade Love for equal value. I doubt a Paul George trade could happen, since George wouldn't be able to play for the Cavs and Lakers at the same time. :-)

A point that often gets lost is the value of continuity. The Cavs were better this year than last, and presumably can improve even more next year with the added time together. True, the weak defense is a problem against the Dubs. But, the current core still *should* be the class of the East. And, it just takes one bit of misfortune to swing a series. Iguodala might go elsewhere. He was vital in all 3 finals. Steph and KD have significant injury histories. Draymond could lose his mind and suplex a referee. It wouldn't take much to even things out.

glenn
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jdw
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

corrado wrote:
Mcgee was woefully underused during the Finals. He would've been a better starter than Zaza. I can see him moving on. Hopefully he continues his comeback story. He would need a quality organization to continue it.


I kind of have faith in the Dubs staff that they knew what they were doing with the Zaza/McGee/West/Death Lineup rotations. Zach Lowe pointed out how hopeless McGee was on defense against the Cavs, especially in Game 4 where Irving and Bron boned him. NBA.com had a piece on it as well:

http://www.nba.com/article/2017/06/11/film-study-cleveland-cavaliers-offense-golden-state-warriors

Quote:
McGee has been the pick-and-roll defender on 13 possessions, according to SportVU. And on those 13 possessions, the Cavs have scored 25 points.


If you scored uncontested layups on those 13 possessions, it would be 26 point. 25 points in 13 possessions is insanely bad.

There's no way Kerr could start McGee against Bron and Kyrie.

Kerr went massively to the Death Lineup in Game 5. 38 minutes for Iggy, 43 for Green, 40 for each of KD and Curry.

Basically, Kerr played it as a do-or-die game pushing Iggy like he hadn't all post season (where Iggy's been a bit banged up), and riding Green hard since he wasn't in foul trouble, and getting as much out of KD and Steph as possible. Kerr wanted to close the shit out in 5 rather than have the Cavs get momentum and a trip back home.


Quote:
I can see West staying, or retiring. He's much better as the tough guy than Zaza. He certainly is lucky he wasnt tossed though.


I think they would like to have West back. My only thought is that he might retire. He got what he wanted, and might decide there's nothing better than that. But KD loves him, and the rest of the team does, and the coaching staff does as well. So they might talk him into coming back.


Quote:
I dont think I see Iggy playing for another team. I can see him taking less to come back.


There's only so far down that he would take less. It would be a bit insulting to ask him to sign for $5M after he went out and did that in a clinching game again, while also picking up a big role while KD was out. He loves the team and his mates, and seems solid with the organization. But he does need to be treat with respect - he's earned it.

He should have been the Sixth Man this year. You see what he did last night, and through the playoffs when he wasn't banged up, and it's puts the person who will win it to shame.

Quote:
That's going to be a "good problem" for the Warriors. everyone is going to flock to them to get a ring. But there's only room for 15. Plus they do a better job at drafting and playing young players than lots of their peers. Mccaw had a big role in the series-clincher. I can see him overtaking Livingston.


More likely McCaw is taking over for Clark if Clark heads off for more money. They like McCaw's defense, length and effort. But he's not a point like Livingston, and has a ways to go before he's a good shooting guard off the bench like Clark is. But he's really young and cheap and game to learn.


Quote:
JR had his good moments (keeping them alive with his 3's) and his usual head-scratching moments (his role in the west altercation) He'll be fine with them. I can see them trying to do something with Shump and Deron Williams. the less said about Deron, the better.


Deron is washed up, and has been for a few years.

JR and Shump are useful role players if looked at in a vacuum, or outside the context of playing the Dubs. I think the problem is that $23M that I mentioned - that's a heck of a lot of money for the two.


Quote:
My friend suggested that they pull off the Melo-Love trade. I still dont see that happening. But then again, these are the Knicks. They'll fall for the trap.


If you trade Love, you want to improve your defense at that position (or at SF with Bron going fulltime to PF). Melo's defense isn't good.
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jdw
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steve Yohe wrote:
Melo isn't mentally able to play in a series like then. Bad idea. I think he'd hide from the chance.---Yohe


Melo in that series would be a hoot.

I would have loved to see Melo go to the Clippers for a CP3 + Blake + Jordan + JJ + Melo starting line up that would have been funny to watch the Dubs run circles around. :)
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jdw
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 10:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CP3 got Irving has been talked about in the past, especially before Irving went off in the tail end of the Finals last year.

The Clippers would get younger, be able to kinda-sorta move on from the current era without breaking things totally apart, and not be locked into CP3's big five year contract. I don't think they would be as good as Kyrie doesn't play good defense, and doesn't really create for teammates like CP3. Perhaps more Point Forward play from Blake. It would be something different, as watching this year's Clippers wasn't different from watching the past two years... kind of boring at this point.

For the Cavs, they would need to do a bit more than that. A healthy CP3 might be a one or two year improvement... but healthy is a question. You do wonder how much CP3 would lessen the burden of having to hide Love - one bad defender rather than two. They still likely would need some other tinkering.

I'd like to see Chris move on. Spurs was the place I was thinking, but it's a tough fit. Cavs would be interesting as well.
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guren



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 10:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jdw wrote:
I kind of have faith in the Dubs staff that they knew what they were doing with the Zaza/McGee/West/Death Lineup rotations. Zach Lowe pointed out how hopeless McGee was on defense against the Cavs, especially in Game 4 where Irving and Bron boned him. NBA.com had a piece on it as well:

http://www.nba.com/article/2017/06/11/film-study-cleveland-cavaliers-offense-golden-state-warriors.


As you and the articles mentioned, McGee has poor instincts on defense. He really struggles against smart teams like the Cavs and he was getting roasted in the pick and roll. Surprisingly, though, his +/- numbers were not that bad.

McGee
Game 1: +8 in 6 minutes
Game 2: -1 in 3 minutes
Game 3: +1 in 8 minutes
Game 4: -4 in 6 minutes
Game 5: DNP

Zaza
Game 1: +5 in 14 minutes
Game 2: +13 in 13 minutes
Game 3: -2 in 13 minutes
Game 4: -11 in 16 minutes
Game 5: -9 in 10 minutes

I thought Kerr (and Mike Brown) did a good job of managing his minutes. McGee would play a handful of minutes, cause a bunch of chaos, and they would pull the plug before things got out of hand. The Cavs were just a bad matchup for him.

glenn
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